Tom and I Shoot the Breeze about Orthodoxy
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APT: Christianity is pretty deliberately exclusive
JTD: well...christianity is exclusive in one sense
JTD: but in the sense that God does love everyone as his children....no-one can deny that...
JTD: so as far as other religions are concerned..i can't even say they're wrong necessarily
JTD: and as more and more research is being done now..the principles of christianity agree with the principles of the other world religions that its sort of like...umm....the only difference is in the stories that were told...
JTD: in all honesty for all we know there coudl have been more than one version of Christ if you want to cal lit...that's my personal take...feel free to criticize
APT: well everyone already knew that Christianity preached the same moral principles as the pagans already were thinking about
APT: but if you're Christian...you're taking the leap of faith that whatever you've already rationalized as good and right in your head...you're going to take that and conform it to the revelation of Christ and the scripture
JTD: and if you were born a hindu and grew up as you have as a christian
JTD: u woudl be defending hinduism in the same manner
JTD: if not stronger
APT: obviously
APT: but
APT: even if I were
APT: I can't say that diametrically opposed ideas are both right
APT: I'm either right or wrong
JTD: they're not opposed ideas though
JTD: if you go and study..i don't have al lthe deatils...but yea...
JTD: let's put it this way
JTD: first achen started reading me books in malayalam
APT: the hindu conception of Trinity?
JTD: that some bishop wrote about the relationship between hindiuism and christianity
APT: Ostathios Thirumeni
APT: I think
JTD: right
APT: yeah but
APT: given that
APT: God has a historical reference point
JTD: what???
APT: Jesus
JTD: in our terms though
JTD: what about the chinese accoutn of seeing Jesus then...
JTD: thats' obviously differen
JTD: or the native american accoutns of the white man returning
JTD: and hten americans come along later and they realize its not the same guy
APT: well you either believe Jesus was God...the Son of God...or you don't
APT: but that's the revelation
APT: you can't really wiggle your way out of it
JTD: i mean we believe in what we belive...yes...
JTD: at the same token..what's the whole point in looking at jesus?
JTD: as the son of God
JTD: Son of God*
JTD: a revelation of God's love down to humanity..by sending his one and only Son...right?
APT: continue
JTD: k..
JTD: its basically the ultimate sacrifice...the biggest love in existence...so when we beleive in Christ and God...who is love in the ultimate form...according to what we believe
JTD: otherwise Christ woudln't be smashing down all the legalism that was going on..w.hich was basically the Jewish church becoming super traditional and set without realizing hte point behind everything
JTD: or what you would call fundamentalist today...
JTD: in some senses...i think
JTD: anywho...my point is..
JTD: what we see as Christ...someone else sees in another form maybe...another manifestation of that same sort of love...
JTD: and if its of the same magnitude..i can't deny (though I won't accept either) the possibility that God's sending down the same message in more than one way
JTD: or thatp eople are interepreting that same message
JTD: in different ways
APT: well I can say that the Holy Spirit works in ways outside the Church..I believe that
APT: and I can say that each religion has truth in it and can be very good
JTD: and so they won't be saved?
JTD: because they didn't call upon Jesus?
JTD: are we talking about Jesus the human son of God?
APT: no no no that's never been anything i'm saying
JTD: oh ok..i just wanted tomake sure lol
JTD: i thoguht u were going along those tracks
APT: I'm just saying that logically if I'm going to be a Christian I have to confess Christ being what He is...if I accept that He is the Truth...that ends up being logically exclusive to an ideology that says he is not the truth
APT: you can be wrong about things and I imagine God still deals with your in a good just way
JTD: oh yea i compeltely agree
APT: I'm just saying that logically
APT: I can't be Christian...than say all religions are pretty much the same
APT: they may be the same as far as morals
JTD: well even beyond morals though
APT: but I think Christianity is hyper-moral
APT: it's the only religion that invite you into a Communion
JTD: so far everyhting's been pointing me in the direction that God truly is everywhere
JTD: and you can see a bit of Christ in every real faith
JTD: note the difference between religion and faith
APT: yeah but you actually do have a real Christ
APT: so I believe that Christ acts everywhere
JTD: agreed
JTD: we just don't have to call him Christ everywhere
JTD: we meaning humanity
APT: yes but
APT: what is a standard of judgement
APT: other than the actual revelation of Christ?
JTD: our concept of salvation is actually really realyl similar to both islam and hinduism..as far as how to get saved
JTD: the actual revelation of Christ
JTD: how do you define that
JTD: in all honesty
JTD: who are we to say that other people haven't seen Christ?
APT: I mean
JTD: whether they call Him Christ or not?
APT: the historical person of Chirst
APT: as far as teachings go I don't know if he taught anything new
APT: but I can't get around that He was actually God
JTD: right taht's the entire ground of our faith
APT: I don't think the Church believes that a non-believer categorically goes to Hell
APT:I think we're saying a lot of the same thing
JTD: Orthodoxy definitely doesn't
APT: I'm saying that ministerially
JTD: we can't go around preaching that Christ isn't the son of God and that hte Bible is useless fundamentalism
JTD: because every other religion is right
APT: haha right
JTD: yea that's retarded
APT: see you know what I'm thinking
APT: but you know
APT: it happens so freaking often
JTD: uh oh
APT: I think the whole "will non-Christians be saved" thing is very played out
APT: the question is pointless...we don't know if Christians will be saved
JTD: right
APT:my apologetic point is
APT:worship is not pragmatic...but having been in touch with the Love of Christ...we can enter into this covenant based relationship with Him...because we are driven by Love to do so
APT:not because we are looking to be saved...that's a selfish motivation
JTD: right..that's not even close to attaining salvation
JTD: our concept of salvation is completely different as well...i mean from standard protestant terms
JTD: we look towards the theosis side of it as more or less a future sense of salvation..or ultimate union..in additon to the past and present sense of salvation
JTD: anywho continue
APT: well I guess
APT: having said that
JTD: there's one point i didn' get
APT:?
JTD: or i coudlnt' really come up with the response rhtaer...like cat got my tongue
JTD: so Christ comes down as a human and dies for us
JTD: human and divine...agreed
JTD: but is our saving faith dependent upon Christ's human element?
APT: I have to believe so
APT: because
JTD: that's the point of our fiath
APT: if God did not take all of humanity upon Himself and die...then how else can humanity be saved
JTD: i mean its how we're Christian...
JTD: right
JTD: so then if that's the case
APT: oh you were asking rhetorically
JTD: yea
JTD: because
JTD: that doens't agree with my initial argument..ir maybe it does
JTD: and i haven't figured it out yet
APT: explain
JTD: like salvation for non-believers
JTD: because they don't belive in CHrist as human..as you said
JTD: which is where i got stuck
JTD: but at hte same time
JTD: i also believe that if you believe in his ultimate Love
JTD: you are saved..becuase that is Christ
JTD: its suppsoed tobe a big paradox that fits togehter..and thats' like the one missing piece of hte puzzle i've hit so far
JTD: our faith is grounded on the fact that Christ was human and died for us to save humanity..is it the Love that saves us..or the death of hte human and divine Christ?
JTD: i mean its one and the same
JTD: but different at the same time in another sense
JTD: because if you reject the human element of Christ...and only accept hte loving aspect of it..it sort of doesn't add up
JTD: i guess tha'ts why stuff like the Da Vinci code is dangerous hah
APT: I don't understand the question though
JTD: like Christ is ultimate Love...the foundation of our faith is the sacrifice out of Love
JTD: right?
APT:yeah
JTD: so then...i was always thinkign a non-believer would get the ability to be saved because of their belief or faith and acceptance of that Love (Christ-love) irrespective of the religion
JTD: that's the place where they woudl be able to attain it
JTD: if any
JTD: the quesiton is...if salvation is dependent on our faith in the fact that Christ is human and divine...then that throws a wrench in that idea
JTD: like if welook at hte believe in hte actual crucifixion event
JTD: rather than the sacrifice
JTD: out of Love
JTD: u follow?
APT: so you're saying that a non-believer would be saved knowing that God is sacrificially loving...not necessarily believing in the Loving Sacrifice?
JTD: well...i'm not saying that they're saved or not saved...likeu said
JTD: that's hte pointless question
JTD: since we don't evne know about our won salvation
JTD: but if there were a point of salvation
JTD: i always thought that woudl be it
JTD: and that's basically by following ultimate moral
JTD: which is the common ground between all the major faiths
JTD: hinduism..islam..judaism...buddhism...christianity...etc.
JTD: all ends up with the definition of ultimate Love in some form or another
JTD: and i started to really think it as i started reading more baout other faiths..like look at the Gita...or listen to dad's Aduitha philosophy stuff
JTD: its directly linked to our Christian tenets
JTD: like every core concept
JTD: except the historical factor
APT: well I believe that Christ died and was resurrected for the believer and non-believer...so even if you don't know about the Sacrifice...you are still a beneficiary of it...but only by being bound to the person of Christ in the flesh can we begin to participate in it
JTD: k that works
APT: well...if you were God...and you wanted to become incarnate....you could really only pick one particular person to work that
APT: so whether we like it or not...God became incarnate in a specific time...in a specific people...in a very particular body
APT: I know it's not philosophically glamorous
JTD: u sure about that?
JTD: lol
APT: but
JTD: God does a good job of expressing himself as a dove a Son and a booming sound still separate
JTD: and the Son reappears in different forms later after his resurection don't forget
APT: but regardless
APT: He's still Jesus
JTD: i think u almost compartmentalized God hah
JTD: yea..not everyone called him Jesus
JTD: not everyone knew him as Jesus either
JTD: hence..the gazibillion names we have for him
APT: besides the point
JTD: lol it has everythign to do with the point
APT: he had one human body
APT: whilst being outside time...he had to exist in time
JTD: well yea Jesus Christ hte son did
JTD: but God in general...
JTD: can't say the same about that
APT: yeah but that's economy not revelation
APT: I already agreed that the Spirit works where It works
APT: but you can't philosophize your way around the Cross
JTD:): right...basically
JTD: through the Cross
JTD: agreed
JTD: that's the point in our human time if you want to call it where God saves humanity as a whole and we're saved
JTD: in one sense
APT: even if you're not aware of it...you still benefit from it
JTD: yea...so my question is mroe or less the requirements for the ones who aren't aware
APT: well that I won't profess to know
APT: I don't even know the minimum requirements for people who are aware
JTD: lol true
JTD: and we're back at the beginning of the circle
APT: I can only play by the rules of the game
JTD: so bascially we're not supposed to know
APT: and I've been revealed this much
APT: but I will say that if you're going to be Christian you have to adhere to the basic truths which are historical and scriptural and spiritual...and unique
JTD: agreed
APT: so what's the problem?
APT: Let's get out there
APT: and start Orthodoxing
JTD: hahaha
posted by street theologian @ 9:06 AM
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